Thursday, October 15, 2009

Behind the Guitar Sounds of Gish & Siamese Dream

THE BODY AND SOUL BEHIND THE GUITAR SOUNDS OF GISH AND SIAMESE DREAM. This is the guitar amp and cabinet used on The Smashing Pumpkins debut album Gish recorded December 1990-March 1991 at Smart Studios, Madison, Wisconsin and the quadruple platinum Siamese Dream recorded December 1992- March 1993 at Triclops Sound Studios in Marietta, Georgia.

We fired up the old SOUL yesterday and it was amazing how instantly, without EQ "that" guitar sound just filled the control room.

I talked with long time friend and technician Mike Rubano about the magic combination of this amp and cabinet.

KB: What kind of amp is this?

Mike: Marshall JCM 800 100 watt head. James also used a JCM 800 but his was the 50 watt model.

KB: I asked Billy how he came about this combo and he said you would have the scoop?

Mike: Billy had a Roland Jazz Chorus amp he wanted to find something that would push more air to fill bigger rooms and cut through Jimmy's powerful drum sound. He was looking for a more aggressive sound. So he found an ad for a used JCM 800 and Marshall slant cab in town and asked me to go with him to take a look at it. We went to the sellers apartment where we found an empty room with just the amp, the cabinet and the seller. There wasn't a bit of furniture in the room. It was a bit creepy. As Billy worked out a deal with the seller I took the amp apart and checked it out. It looked great, we tried it out and is was decent sounding. So he cut a deal and we took it home.

KB: So I heard from Billy that changing the tubes really added to the punch of this amp?

Mike: To get it ready for the road I wanted to make sure the tubes would hold up and I had no idea how old the current tubes were, so I ordered new ones. We didn't have much money back in the day but I was able to find a good deal on KT88s at Antique Electronic Supply and ordered a set. When they arrived I tossed the old tubes, installed the new ones, biased the amp and I gave it back to Billy. He just loved the way it sounded. In fact over the years as the band had more money to spend on gear we tried "better" more expensive tubes and he always had me go back to the KT88s from china.

KB to Billy: What are your memories about the amp?

Billy: When I first bought the amp in 1989 from this stoner guy, I thought it sounded ok but I think I was more excited to just be playing thru a Marshall. I realized after a time that I wasn't that crazy about the sound so I asked Mike to look at it and see what he could do. After he changed the tubes to the KT88s the amp just sprang to life, and it was the body of the amp that I used to drive insane amounts of distortion into to get 'that sound'. Butch Vig and I were so sold on the sound of the amp that outside of a few select parts, I would say that 98pct of all guitar parts on the first two albums were done thru this amp/speaker combo. In order to change the sound, the Stratocaster parts would be recorded through a shure 57 on the bottom right speaker, and the Les Paul parts would be recorded through a Sennheiser 421 on the top left speaker. This subtle difference between what speaker we would use created the sense of playing thru a different amp set-up even though obviously I wasn't.

Love KB


Matt Sevrens said...

#1 WTF billy with hair.... I can see a little corner of it. Its trippy.

#2 Man, he remembers the mics and placement of mics from over 15 years ago? Wow.

joaopedro7 said...

i prefer twix. where those crazy hats come from? peace :)

EasternMind said...

That is such a great photo of Billy!

And man, what cool freaking amps! It was really interesting to read about their history and usages. Will these be used on Teargarden?

That amp has massive soul power! Haha.

Unknown said...

Pretty awesome.

How much Soul will be used more frequently now?

What is your favorite pedal through the amp that just makes it sound to it's extreme?

bodhisattva said...

it is billy bear.. :)

gyang333 said...

man is this why he's been hiding? he's been growing out his hair!

Jpisciotta said...

Awesome post. I love hearing about the different gear and mic's and mic placement!

Sabrina Smith aka Sophia said...

okay wait .... billy, are you growing a beard? is that a sky thing? or a yahowha thing? it looks great!

Unknown said...

hey kerry is it possible billy actually meant to say the sennheiser 421 mic? i'm not familiar with a beyer 421. anyway thanks for all the updates.

andrewface said...

Amazing!!! Hey kerry do you know what type of speakers are in the cabinet? v30s? I think stock that amp comes with g12-75s? any idea?

Unknown said...

Yay! Old stuff! I love old stuff! hahahaha

Unknown said...

Didn't Billy use an ADA MP-1 for the majority of Gish? I think I remeber him saying something about that in his Guitar World column.

sabertoothmonkey said...

Thanks so much KB, what a nice story.

studiodog said...

Hi Goody, yes Sennheiser 421 thanks for catching that.

studiodog said...

Hi Justin, Billy wrote his section so I'm guessing that is what he used.

Auburn said...

Epic sound, crazy how subtle things can create such an identity.

Menrad said...

This is a very interesting update, worth the waiting.
This gear must sound very loud in the studio !
Thanks Kerry.

Unknown said...

I played through one of these at a guitar shop not too long ago. Man, what an awesome sound. Love that amp.

Unknown said...

justin: yes, an ADA MP-1 plugged into the front input of the SOUL head.

Unknown said...

How many "Mars" could a Marshall sell if a Marshall could sell "Mars"? (reissue the JCM and add Billy Corgan on the panel and some KT88s in the octals.) Cha-Ching!

I can't imagine how bad BC through a Jazz Chorus would sound. You gotta have that midrange and grit!

HKS3 said...

I've had this question for a long time now...What are the recordings in-between the songs on Siamese Dream...When you really crank it,(in-between the songs,just after the previous song is over), was this an accident or are there messages to the fans? I tell alotta fans this and they never knew this existed!

Fuzz said...

Wow, i wish i could plug my guitar into this amp!

the goat's head said...


Jake said...

Noticed you have a AKG 414 on the soul amp in the picture. Replacing the 421?

Unknown said...

I was introduced to the JCM 800 by a female guitar player in one of the bands I played in around 1997. She was playing a PRS through a mid-80's JCM 800 paired with an old Bogner cabinet. The sound of these things is amazing. The amount of clarity and warmth they produce, even through the dirt of being overdriven is just unbelievable.

TheDarkCatcha said...

Sometimes the best way to try something new is look at your roots and then roll with it. I can't wait for the new material with some familiar sound and new perspective.
By the way. Tell Billy that if he's comfortable with growing out his hair, then he should do it. He looks great with it and he shouldn't feel the need to shave it at this point in his career to cater to the fans.

niemike said...

Nice one KB, loving the tech and gear posts!

niemike said...

can i ask a question? how did billy (the christian) become involved with Sash Grey the porn star? Don't get me wrong, Sasha is doing what she needs to do to get by... but Billy? I'm an athiest so I don't give a fuck about jesus and all that shit, but isn't this classic Christianism? haha

Brett said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brett said...

Thanks for the post. I love to hear this kinda stuff, its very interesting how sounds were found and what lead to them.

Unknown said...
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Unknown said...

I read in the "Hello Kitty Kat" article in last week that stated Billy used the Big Muff guitar pedal between 1990 and 1996, which would mean he used it on Gish and Siamese Dream. Since you guys are using the same model amp from back in those days, are you guys also using the Big Muff guitar pedal along with it?

Unknown said...

Is it just me, or does Billy kinda look like Mr. Tumnus??

Unknown said...

Joey - the Big Muff is used on only one song on Gish, which is Siva.

You can hear it almost right from the very start, on the guitar that comes in at 3 seconds with the harmony. It stays in for most of the song, from memory... in all the heavy rhythm parts except for under the solo I think. There may be some little lead bits through it too.

The Gish sound is mainly the ADA MP-1 into this head.

The Big Muff was used way, way more on Siamese Dream - on every song I believe... not for every guitar part however.

Billy talks about this stuff in his autobiographical blog posts from around the launch of TFE - do a search on "Big" on this page (case sensitive, in Firefox):

Unknown said...

Joey, also, this is the interview I was thinking of:

"GS: Let's get back to Gish for a minute. What does the title of the song "Siva" refer to?

CORGAN: One of the three Hindu figurehead gods. It's really just an example of my typical free association.

GS: That song is reminiscent in some ways of Cream, in particular the song "Swlabr" from Disraeli Gears.

CORGAN: No one's every pointed that out, but I see what you mean totally. The guitar tone on the breaks is like early Cream. I couldn't even tell you what guitar I was using, but that's probably the only spot on Gish where I used the Big Muff, and six months later I was using it on everything. I love that liquid tone."

Speed Kills said...

Love the beard Billy.. Great new look!

I have a question on the album recording process..

As I understand, when Zeitgeist was first released, there were a lot of remarks on how Zeitgeist was mastered.

I always felt that Billy's music is very dynamic. And maybe the way Zeitgeist was mastered removed some of this dynamic.

It sounded very buffed up, so it always sounded loud, even when you play it softly. I would have loved if we as a listener could have to choice to 'control' the volume and energy..

Well, I guess my question is, will the new songs be mastered softer or will they be sounding as buffed up as Zeitgeist?

For more info and waveform comparison, see:

Unknown said...

Thanx for clearing that up for me, Brendo. Do you know if it's being used for this album?

buzlink said...

Good read! Awesome to read and see this stuff.

Unknown said...

"Billy had a Roland Jazz Chorus amp he wanted to find something that would push more air to fill bigger rooms and cut through Jimmy's powerful drum sound."

Well, you certainly won't have to worry about powerful sounding drums anymore.

Unknown said...

Isn't it about time Line6 borrowed this amp from Billy and made a software model of it for the PODxt Pro? :-)

Perhaps Billy could suggest it to them? Ahem. Hint. :-)

Needless to say, if I ever buy a "real" amp setup, I'm getting an old JCM800 and having it fitted with KT88 tubes. I might even insist on having KT88's made in China. :-)

Unknown said...

Wish I could make out those settings on the SOUL amp. Wonder if they're the same from SD? Looks like 7's across the EQ section and presence barely on.

Cathexis said...

you can tell Billy has a big cock in that first pic!

Cathexis said...

you can tell Billy has a big cock in that first pic!

Unknown said...

I worked on an album with Jeff Tomei and he told me a little about working with The Pumpkins and Butch when they were cutting Siamese Dream at Triclops. He said that they used the guts of an amplifier with the speaker just laying on the floor for a few parts. He also said the Billy was really determined to make sure that the Bass guitar on that record had a ton of subharmonic stuff around 30 to 70 khz but that he wanted the midrange and biting tone scooped out of the bass in the eq in order to get the most frequency range out of the guitars.

Unknown said...

The SOUL amp is a post 1985 horizontal input JCM800 2203. If it's an '86 version it has less capacitors giving it a grainy thin muddy sound as the volume is cranked compared to earlier JCM800's.

Anonymous said...

Billy always lets what hair he has left grow when he's in the studio. he's been doin that since at least zwan. Then he shaves it again right before a tour.

kills4june said...

ive found another way to get thier early sound i just use a compressor with a very hi rectified high gain.

kills4june said...

ive found another way to get thier early sound i just use a compressor with a very hi rectified high gain.

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beauhall said...

Did he buy this amp in Atlanta, from a Japanese looking guy named George who wore all black?

I know this sounds stupid, but I sold the exact same model to a guy in Atlanta who bought the amp at his apartment, which was empty, in 1988. Yes. A very ridiculous coincidence, but it's worth asking.

Aumakua said...

Hey Billy, I'm confused. What happened to the ADA MP-1 and Boogie Poweramp?
The articles some people have written about u dudes (& girls) state that Gish guitar was all Rack gear - but I still swear that there's a huge change of guitar tone between Gish and the Drown single (Pisces couldn't be an ADA, right?) ... was it really the JCM 800 & Muff all along??? Kicks match the period like rad, BTW!
Anyways the entire idea behind marketing Teargarden by Kaleidyscope is (explecative) awesome, thanks for making things easier on us brokeasses! Thats a very progressive thing you're doing and I'd have to say a lot of people will be grateful for the music...
Here's a toast to all artists not having to deal with pretending they're salespeople anymore!!!

Unknown said...

billy has changed music in his own way. like hendrix
and a handful of others

Comical Ali said...

Mark, I love Billy's music too, but even he knows he is no Hendrix as far as innovation. Don't mean to bury Billy but to praise Jimi.

paleblueskies said...

Ah, I miss the sounds of the Gish and Siamese Dream era...

Doug H said...

For any of you that can't find an older Marshall JCM-800 in good condition that hasn't been MODDED in some kinda might wanna check out the New JCM-800 Kerry King Signature Series...They already come with the KT88's. And YES the New Marshalls still sound great whether they have EL34's, 6550's, KT77's, KT88's or whatever you want to bias thee amp to. Thee only thing you may wanna do--if you're a pro & have an ear that can truly hear the difference--is take it to "A-REPUTABLE-AMP-TECH" and have him/her go through it and upgrade the Caps, and maybe the Tranny & The Choke but that's only if you're truely looking for something really specific in your TONE!!! And for anyone interested, htee original JCM-Cabinets came with G12-75's--they're alot like the Green-Back G12-25's but on STERIODS!!! Rock-On!!! Always, In All-Ways, Doug H/tonejonez

Unknown said...

no mention of the mu-tron bi-phase? How much influence over the final sound did that have? If I recall, you guys ran "everything through it"

The Frey said...

I've used a Fender Twin for years and the Pumpkins tone is very easy to nail... compression pedal and Russian Big Muff Pi. Simple.

My rig has changed and now I can get exactly the tone from 'Today' with this setup-
Boss CS3->splitter->
split #1->Zoom UFO-1 Fuzz->Marshall '89 JCM900
split #2->Russian Muff Pi->Fender '88 Twin

Don't normally comment on posts, but the Pumpkins are my favourite band so thought I'd add my two cents...

Unknown said...

Great article!

Mario Mello said...

this is a tribute animationa to the smashing pumpkins and the original formation. was made with love by someone who has always been a fan of The Smashing Pumpkins, and always follows the band wherever they are.
Hugs from Brazil
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CN said...

Do you remember if it was a black or white md421?
I had a black one.. Never got along with it personally, but I see the white ones sound different.
I'm also interested in putting kt88's in my Jcm, but there are so many options now I don't wanna go through them all. I know it was a long time ago, but do you have any additional info on them? Like color, gold pins, color of the base.. Even the text?
ShuGuang seems to produce all of these coming out of China, but it seems like there are a lot of rebranded ones and different models. Kinda lost where to go, but I'm not digging el34's. I'm usually a 5150 person myself, which ahve 6l6 but figured I'd try the kt88's for something different. Thanks.

CN said...

AFAIK, the mics used in SD were sm57, md421, c414, and m160. Probably most of it was the 57.xould be some blending occasionally, and different mix it whatever when doing tons of overdubs. Anything with insane high end is probably the 414.
The m160 orobay sounds the most like the Amp in the room.

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